Series II: Interviews by Amy Starecheski, 2009-2012, inclusive

In the first session, Frank Morales discusses his upbringing on the Lower East Side, his experiences in the 1960s liberation theology and decision to go to seminary, and his early experiences with squatting while working as a priest in the Mott Haven neighborhood of the South Bronx. He describes the theory of spatial deconcentration and frames the abandonment of the 1970s as an attack on people of color and squatting as resistance to it. Later he discusses returning to the Lower East Side and squatting in that neighborhood, including losing several buildings to arson. He compares squatting in the Bronx and on the Lower East Side. In the second session, Morales primarily discussed his ideology regarding the value of property and the right to housing. Although not originally involved in the decision to move forward with UHAB and the legalization process, Morales shared his thoughts and feelings about the decision and noted his support for having UHAB as an ally versus antagonistic forces. He also discusses the difficulties of funding the legalization process and the "normalization" of squatting.

Alfa Diallo's interviews discusses his experience living at 544 East 13th Street. He describes opening the building, allocating spaces, and doing renovations. In this interview, Diallo also discusses the split that occurred among residents in his building.

In this interview Bill Cashman talks about how he came to squatting through his involvement in the punk scene and discusses the thrill of exploring abandoned buildings in Asbury Park, and a similar feeling on the Lower East Side. Cashman, who ended up living in C-Squat, describes the building's decision to phase out having people live in the basement as they were trying to legalize, and the legalization process overall. He talks about how spaces were allocated and contested in the building. Cashman also describes the conflict between the NYPD, Leftover Crack in 2003, and the increasing challenges of putting on shows in Tompkins Square Park. He describes working on his room and becoming a member of the house. Cashman was deeply involved in the process of finding a tenant, the Museum of Reclaimed Urban Spaces, for the C-Squat storefront, and he talks about that. Cashman also talks about his interest in history and his research into his building's past.

In this brief interview, Brett Pants talks about how he found himself at C-Squat and how he began squatting at a very early age, starting when he was still attending high school. Pants discusses the manual labor that he and his fellow squatters put into rebuilding C-Squat, as well as the emotional investment that he made in regards to the building and the residents of C-Squat, who he considers family. Pants admits that he never really believed that the legalization process would take place, and at the time of the interview felt very disillusioned and frustrated with what he perceived as UHAB's lack of progress in the whole process.

In this interview, Dan Yafet talks about work days and decisions within the 209 East 7th Street building where he lived. He describes the make-up of the building's residents at that time, and later talks about the decision to cooperate with UHAB. Yafet also discusses his work with architect Paul Castrucci in helping to get the squatted buildings up to code. He continues to discuss the legalization process and financial issues that the squats faced with UHAB.

In his interview David Boyle talks about taking over and working on buildings on 13th street, specifically 539 and 544. He played a major role in the organizing and structure of the buildings and the East 13th Street Homesteading Coalition. His interview focuses on adverse possession and he speaks at some length about the process and decision-making regarding legalization. He also talks about the 13th street eviction and the trouble between 544 East 13th and the rest of the buildings on 13th Street.

In his interview Edgar Rivera discusses gaining access to a space in Umbrella House, which he contributes to the fact that he was young, strong, and willing to work. He briefly touches on his experience as a minority in Umbrella House and the squatting community in general. He explains the different dynamics between non-native and native English speakers and the dynamics between different Latino groups. He also talks about his disapproval of the deal with UHAB, mostly because he felt there was a lack of transparency.

During his interview Eric Rassi recalls New York in the early 1980s and the onset of the housing crisis. He recounts series of arson and building demolitions and the Tompkins Square Park Riots in 1988. He also goes into detail about his ideology about property as a commodity and land rights. Rassi expresses his unhappiness with how the UHAB legalization process worked and the issues of financing and debt. He also briefly touches on conflicts within the building on 10th Street where he lived.

Erin Williams describes the ending of the squatting scene and the acceleration of gentrification until a tipping point around 2007. She moved into C-Squat around 1999 and describes her first impressions of Alphabet City as surprisingly green but still just starting to gentrify. She talks about the social world of squatting and C-Squat particularly, over the past 13 years. Williams discusses gender relations and allocation of space in the building, and talks about the legalization process and the changes and challenges that came with it. Williams, who studied archeology at Brooklyn College, describes her decisions that led her to seek an education, and later her decision to not continue pursuing an academic career. She began working IT and accounting at a publishing company, and she discusses how squatting and legalization shaped her choices in life. She also discusses how she learned construction skills and built her apartment.

In this interview Fran Luck describes the Tompkins Square Riots of 1988 as the events that radicalized her and brought her into contact with the squatting scene. She discusses the contrast between the squatting movement and Cooper Square and the Village Independent Democrats, with which she had been involved previously. She describes the squatter's political analysis, emphasizing planned spatial deconcentration and framing gentrification as genocide and the growing connections between organized homeless people and squatters. Luck moved to the Lower East Side in the 1960s and describes the neighborhood as a bohemian enclave, and the process of gentrification starting in the 1970s. In this interview Luck also talks about the squats in the 1990s, focusing on how they were organized, their politics, and problems with bullying, domestic violence, and sexism. She focuses on the sexism in the political wing of the movement and the dynamics of anarchism and communism. Luck also talks about the feminist radio show she hosted on Steal This Radio, which later moved to WBAI. Finally she discusses evictions (8th Street, 13th Street, ABC Community Center, Doc Blocos) and the process of legalization.

In this interview Geoff Dann talks a lot about the difference between the neighborhood when he first moved into the Lower East Side and the neighborhood in 2012. He expresses nostalgia for how free and dangerous the neighborhood was in the late 1980s and early 1990s. He also talks about the decision-making process within Umbrella house, how people were given spaces in the squat, and how people were evicted from the building. Dann expresses his dislike for what he sees as the overly political attitudes and actions of his fellow squatters and of the legalization process.

In his interview, George Marco talks about his experience moving from one squat to another and then away from New York City. He also talks about his ideas about squatting, or homesteading as he prefers to call it, which are pro-legalization. He discusses his priorities in a building, which focus on getting the gas, heat, water and electricity turned on immediately. At 4th Street he and several other people quickly brought the building up to code, took legal action and became owners of the building, after which Marco sold his space in the building. Marco believes this should be the objective of all squatters but acknowledges that there are different objectives and different personalities within the movement.

Howard Brandstein's interview discusses his work with different organizations and the evolution of the homesteading and affordable housing movements in New York City. He discusses not-for-profit housing versus for-profit housing. He also comments on the some key differences between homesteading and squatting.

This is the second interview Amy Starecheski conducted with Jen Kaminsky. The first covered Kaminsky's personal history and discussed how she ended up working at UHAB, as well as an overview of the squat legalization process, which was not recorded. This session was conducted via Skype video call, but only the audio has been recorded. This interview focuses on Kaminsky's observations of how squatters responded to and engaged with the legalization process. She discusses the appropriate role for non-profits like UHAB to play in a squatting campaign, assisting the squatters at their request. She discusses the romanticization of squatting by organizers in Buffalo where she worked most recently, in comparison to the real and difficult experience on the Lower East Side. She also talks about people's conflicted feelings about commodifying their housing and commercial spaces and the city's role, as the original legal owner of the buildings, in shaping the parameters of the legalization deal. She talks about warehousing and evictions in the legalizing squats. Kaminsky also discusses the challenges faced by the most marginal people during the legalization process, and the ways that people's responses to the process varied along class and gender lines, especially in terms of leadership. Additionally Kaminsky discusses the risk of foreclosure of HDFCs.

Jessica Hall discusses the difficult process of getting a space in the building where she lived at 209 East 7th Street, everyday life in squats, and her run-in with Child Protective Services. As the secretary for the building she talks about decision-making processes and the shift over time from construction work to administrative work. She was deeply involved in the legalization process and talks about the negotiations with UHAB, and in particular the debates over debt and resale value. As a homemaker, Hall talks about the impact of that on her life choices and her decision to go back to school to become a social worker. Finally, she talks about what the gender dynamics and everyday life in the building have been like in recent years.

In this interview the interviewee discusses witnessing the legalization process from the perspective of a relative outsider (the interviewee was not a full member of the building until after the process was already underway). The interviewer talks about the unique way that they got access to their apartment and the back-and-forths that happened with the interviewee and other rooms and other buildings. This interview contains a lot of insight about the rules of squatting and how things changed with the legalization of the buildings.

In his interview Lawrence talks about the reasons why people end up squatting. He recounts his role in fighting against the eviction of 13th Street and his involvement in the punk rock scene, which had a lot of influence on his work as an artist. He also discusses the legalization process and his reasons for favoring the legalization of his building.

Marissa DeDominicis describes her initial involvement with a group organizing to occupy vacant buildings, and their entry into 539 East 13th Street. She discusses her move to 544 East 13th Street following a fire at 539. In this interview she talks about her deteriorating relationship with the father, conflicts over the apartment, and the overall deterioration of social relations in the building. She describes her experiences as a single mom and the challenges of negotiating a custody battle as a squatter. DeDominicis describes the process of negotiating the legalization deal, and her disappointment that people wanted to sell for market rate, and her decision to leave 544.

In this interview Marta Dann describes the intense community formed by squatters struggling to live in difficult circumstances together, and the challenges of dealing with issues of race, class and gender. She discusses the birth of her son, and her experience of raising a child in a squat. She also talks about how the building has changed over time, becoming more individualistic and rule-bound, especially with legalization.

During the first session of the interview Nigel Clayton talks about the shoddy construction UHAB did on his apartment and all of the trouble he had with UHAB and with the legalization process. During the second session Clayton discusses his connection to the Lower East Side and why he choose to be homeless there instead of find an apartment anywhere else in the city. He attributes his loyalty to the East Side to its singular vibe and to the music scene. He also talks about his experience as one of the few black people involved in the squatting scene and the difficulty of maintaining a space in an apartment if you were a minority. Nigel also shares his thoughts and feelings about the legalization process and specifically, how complicated and unfair he found the UHAB legalization process. Nigel ends the interview talking about his daily life and his routine and his objectives of getting a job in radio.

In this interview Osiris (pseudonym) discusses his process of deciding to move into Umbrella House, knowing it was a squat and a space with no water, heat, or windows. He moved into Umbrella house sometime around 2000, thinking it was temporary, and a better option than imposing on friends. Osiris discusses his shift in thinking about his place when he found out about the legalization deal. He also talks about the process of getting and renovating his space. He talks about the stigma of living in a squat and the politics and morality of squatting. Osiris describes the meetings and governance of the building. He also describes the liberating experience of having affordable housing and talks about how the building chooses new members.

Peter Spagnuolo describes the social and physical structures of the squats. He also discusses the heroin cultures in the Bay Area and New York City in the 1980s. Spagnulo was deeply involved in the adverse possession suit filed against the city in 1994-95, and talks about that process in detail. He also discusses his archiving practices in this interview.

In this interview Popeye (Roland Llewellyn-Thomas) describes the transitions of counter-culture movement in the Lower East Side from the Beats and hippies and the Young Lords of the 1970s and solitary, curmudgeonly squatters to the more organized, whiter activists, and crusty punks squatting in the 1980s and 1990s. He also describes the life cycle of a squat, and life at C-Squat in the early days. He discusses gender and power dynamics at C-Squat. Popeye was the lead singer of the band Banji, and he discusses how squatting allowed him to stay in music even though it did not become a source of income for him. He describes the transition at C-Squat from a mixed group, with lots of Hungarians and other Europeans, to all young crusty punks, and how the group learned over time to work together as a collective. Finally, he talks about the legalization process and his experiences of becoming a homeowner.

Rick Klemann describes the process of getting an apartment at 544 East 13th Street, his work renovating the space, and getting water, electricity, and new windows for the building. He also talks about racialized conflicts with local teens, and the racial and gender dynamics of the squats. Klemann also discusses the legalization deal, critiques of it, and the split in his building which prevented them from moving forward.

In his interview Rolando Politi discusses his role as a representative and the challenges of trying to work with the community. He also talks about the difficulties that arose as factions in the buildings began to disagree and argue. His interview contains a number of good stories about opening and working on buildings on 13th Street. Politi moved around several times because he never got very attached to a specific apartment or building. He also offers insight into the differences between European squatting and squatting in the United States.

In this interview, Stanley Cohen discusses his participation in legally assisting the squatter's movement. He speaks in detail about the 13th Street Adverse Possession case, for which he was the lead trial lawyer. Although Cohen and the squatters initially won the case, the ruling was overturned in the appeal process and the 13th Street squats were consequently evicted. Cohen talks about the difficulties of proving adverse possession. Cohen also discusses other legal action he was involved in, such as the conflict over fire barrels in Tompkins Square Park and defending squatters who got arrested at protests.

Tauno Biltsted describes the "chaotic and lovely" world of the Lower East Side in the 1980s, and how he got involved with squatting through the encampment at Tompkins Square Park. He moved into C-Squat in 1989, and describes the social and physical makeup of the building at that time, including drug use, decision-making, and the creation of the basement show space. He discusses the ABC Community Center occupation, and the complicated relationships between Tent City and the squatters, and homesteaders and squatters. He also talks about his experience living in Umbrella House. He describes the politics, organization, and physical condition of Umbrella House over the next 20 years, including rebuilding the infrastructure of the space, issues around race, record-keeping, and allocation of spaces. He discusses eviction defense, including 13th Street, and the legalization process, beginning with meetings in the early 1990s that did not lead to an agreement on legalization. Biltsted was deeply and consistently involved in the legalization process, and he discusses debates over resale value and affordability and the challenges of dealing with ownership.

In this interview Thadeaus Umpster discusses the many different squatted buildings he lived in, and his experience opening up several buildings (including in other parts of New York and other cities across the country) that lasted on average six months to two years. Umpster discusses his political involvements, especially with the organization Food Not Bombs, and the ways in which his activist work intertwined with the squatting scene. He also discusses squatting in the Bronx at Casa del Sol. Umpster also goes into detail about the difference between his perspective on squatting and that of the "old-school" squatters and squatters involved in the UHAB deal. The interview ends with a conversation about the economy, the recent recession and what it might mean for those attempting to reenergize the squatting movement.

In this interview Joanee Freedom talks about the nineteen-year rent strike and lawsuit in her building on 6th Street and Avenue B and about her work with the garden on the corner. Freedom also tells the story of opening the squat at 544 East 13th Street and discusses gentrification in the neighborhood. She talks about Steal this Radio, the Rainbow Trading Post and Everything for Everybody, and about underground non-profit food distribution networks in the 1970s. She also discusses consensus-based decision making in these contexts. Freedom remembers the Tompkins Square Park riots and the drug scene in the neighborhood and the struggles between squatters and gardeners and drug dealers.

Maggie Wrigley's interview describes the beauty and brutality of New York and the Lower East Side in the 1980s. Wrigley, who lived at Bullet Space, describes doing work days, being voted in at a meeting, and discusses how the squatter made decisions about allocating space over time. She describes the cold of those first winters, the violent atmosphere, doing work on the building, and the community of squatters and supporters. She also describes both tense and friendly relationships with their neighbors on the block. Wrigley talks about the 13th Street evictions, the defense of Umbrella House, and defending their building with barricades and petitions from the city and from non-profit housing groups. Wrigley discusses how squatters were demonized, and how they proved their good intentions by securing permanent affordable housing in the neighborhood. She also discusses her archives – why she made them, what they contain, and how she has used them. Bullet Space has historically been an artists' building, and she discusses its evolution as such, and art projects done there over the years, including Steal This Radio and Your House is Mine. Wrigley talks about how the building was run, and how it has changed with legalization. She describes the health impacts of living in a squat. Finally, Wrigley discusses the legalization process, and the challenges of dealing with UHAB and becoming homeowners, including negotiations with Margarita Lopez.

In this interview Johanna Bartlet talks about her experience as a squatter and discusses some of hardships of living in the cold and dusty squats. She describes what the neighborhood and the art scene were like she arrived and how it changed over time. She discusses the class and gender dynamics of the squats and in particular the macho atmosphere and conflicts between artists and housing activists. She also talks the legalization and renovation process and the shifting power dynamics in the building. In this interview Bartlet describes her art and she her more recent work teaching art to young people. She also talks about the strains and the security of life in a legalized squat.